What is it like to be a female Sergeant Major in the Marine Corps? Check out this week's episode of the Women of the Military podcast with retired Sergeant Major Robin Fortner. She served in the Marine Corps for thirty years, enlisting the summer before Desert Storm kicked off. We talked about how the experience of having Desert Storm happen at the beginning of her career shaped her future and the attitude of the Marines. We also covered what it was like to often be the only one in the room (either because of race or gender, or sometimes both).
Women of the Military would like to thank Sabio Coding Bootcamp for sponsoring this week’s episode! Sabio Coding Bootcamp is a top-ranked coding Bootcamp that is 100% dedicated to helping smart and highly motivated individuals become exceptional software engineers. Visit their website www.Sabio.la to learn how you may be able to use your GI Bill benefits to train at Sabio. Your tuition and a monthly BAH stipend may be paid during your training period. They also are 100% committed to helping you find your first job in tech. Don’t forget to head over to www.Sabio.la to learn more today.
Check out the full show notes at https://www.airmantomom.com/2021/09/a-female-sergeant-major/
Check out the full transcript here.
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Amanda Huffman00:00
Welcome to Episode 158 of the women of the military podcast. This week my guest is retired Sergeant Major Robin fourtner. She served in the Marine Corps for 30 years and let's say in the summer before Desert Storm kicked off, we talked about how the experience of having Desert Storm happened at the beginning of her career shaped her future and the attitude of the Marine Corps. We also covered what it was like to be the only one in the room either because of her race, or her gender, or sometimes both. Robin gives so much great wisdom and so many great stories from her time in the military. I really think you're gonna enjoy this episode. So let's get started. You're listening to season three of the women on the military podcast Here you will find the real stories of female servicemembers. I'm Amanda Huffman, I am an Air Force veteran, military spouse and mom. Hi Korean women in the military podcast in 2019. As a place to share the stories of female service members past and present, with the goal of finding the heart of the story while uncovering the triumphs and challenges women face while serving in the military. If you want to be encouraged by the stories of military women and be inspired to change the world. Keep tuned for this latest episode of women on the military. Women of the military podcast would like to thank Sabio Coding Bootcamp for sponsoring this week's episode. Sabio Coding Bootcamp is a top ranked coding boot camp that is 100% dedicated to helping smart and highly motivated individuals become exceptional software engineers visit their website at www.sabio.la to learn how you may be able to use your GI Bill benefits to train at savea your tuition and monthly BAH stipend may be paid during your training period. They are also 100% committed and helping you find your first job in tech. So don't forget to head over to www.sabio.la to learn more.And now let's get started with this week's interview. Welcome to the show. Robin, I'm excited to have you here.
Robin Fortner02:17
Yes, I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
Amanda Huffman02:20
So let's start with why did you decide to join the Marine Corps?
Robin Fortner02:25
awesome question. I get asked that so often. And I think my answer is typical for some people. I was born and raised in New York City and down I was born and raised by a single parent. So by the time I got to high school, I just remember by my junior year thinking what am I going to do next many people was going on college trips and things like that. But because I was very single, hardworking Mom, don't get me wrong. But I also didn't want to put the burden on her. Although she was more than happy to take the burden when I say that because when I graduated, she I made a promise to her that I would do at least one year college. And I did and she she sent me to college on her own dime. But it's just something in me as as the daughter like I just didn't want to put that burden on her. So since junior high school, I knew I was going to do something different on my pay my own way through school. That was my thought process then, and the military was one of those ways to make that happen. Now that didn't hear about the recording know much about the Marine Corps. So that was attractive to me because it was something different, but I didn't know much about it. And nobody in my family that I knew of had ever joined the Marine Corps, they all joined the army. So I wanted to be different, do something more challenging. And that's how I walked in. So I walked into the recruiters office and just that that was my journey, I didn't know where it would take me and honestly I didn't even talk about school, I just wanted a platform to get out into yoga does not put the burden on my mom and just get that transition between, you know, young adult and adulthood. But lo and behold, never knew that I would actually enjoy being a marine and continue to serve. Yeah, so
Amanda Huffman03:57
you were looking for something a little bit different and the Marine Corps is definitely different. And you didn't want to be a burden to your mom, single parent who had to work really hard and you saw the military as an opportunity to make that happen. And so were you initially planning on just serving the first enlistment
Robin Fortner04:14
exactly initially planned for just serving four years right that's what they told me although when you're 18 four years sounds like eternity already right? So I guess that's how you get now to me is four years but like I said those four years a lot transpired. You know, I had to grow up really, really fast. I joined underneath the logistics platform. I was a supply clerk if you will, and I did well at that job. I didn't know exactly what that entailed at first want. Once I started getting into I was doing well I was getting meritorious promotions and I was like wow, okay, this is different than what I thought it wasn't just the nine to five, it was a lot more Intel to it. Desert Shield Desert Storm had kicked off right as I got out of boot camps. I didn't have to go but we had the back end of it where people were coming back and Armed Forces telling us stories and things like that. So it felt bigger than just me at that point. And I knew then it was a bigger cause, right? So I was like, oh, wow, this is not just you're in here for the nine to five, there really is a cultural shift in your mindset that, you know, it's this is national security, this is for a bigger reason than the cells that gravitate with me. And I continue to keep that warrior type of mentality throughout, you know, I didn't know where it was gonna take me, I really did. And each enlistment was just a new adventure, a new adventure. So again, we will continue on, but that's kind of how I got started in the military.
Amanda Huffman05:37
Yeah. So as you're going through boot camp, did you guys know anything about what was going on in the desert storm Desert Shield area? And you were aware of what was happening?
Robin Fortner05:48
Good question. And, I mean, honestly, no, it just, it wasn't a topic of discussion at all. And then when you're 18, you don't always watch the news, right? Hey, so I wasn't fully aware it was when we graduated at a boot camp and went to our MLS school. For me, it was the supply school campus in North Carolina. I remember watching it like it was January 1991. And I just remember watching on the news of everybody else thinking how will this affect us? Right? So you're just kind of watching the Marines land ashore. And it's like, oh, wow, that's that's, that's kind of what I do now. And I remember checking into my first unit and somebody, you know, just just a random NCO, you know, everybody got something to say to the newbies anyway, right? And I remember vividly at everything else that they probably said, one person said to us, and he said, Don't unpack. That was worse, I was like, Don't unpack your next type of thing. So of course, you know, you get the butterflies like, oh, shoot. This is real, this is real. But that was my introduction to when he joined the service, you know, what it means to serve. And with that, it's, you know, you are holding up your and to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And that that could possibly mean yes, you may go into harm's way. So at least was introduced to that early on that I had to be ready to go into harm's way.
Amanda Huffman07:07
Yeah, it sounds like it played a big impact in kind of like shifting your focus to kind of like me, I was kind of like clueless. And then you know, the military. I was like, Oh, yeah, before September 11. I was like, Oh, the world is happy, everything's great. And then September 11 happened, and everything changed. And I like shifted my perspective, and eventually led me to the military. And it sounds like it's kind of similar for you with desert shark.
Robin Fortner07:33
Exactly. Because, you know, you're definitely oblivious to world problems. Because we're sheltered a little bit, you know, depending on where you're from, but just sheltered from a lot of the tragedies that definitely occur on the international platform. So I had no idea that that that's would be entrusted to me, you know, to me, I'm still a young girl from New York City, not the warrior that I was trained to be at the time. And I think that has a lot to do with the mindset. So yeah, you're absolutely right, at least postpone the beginning that that one shop tone, and that one shop comment, it was like it stopped everything else and was like, Oh, the reality is he's right. You know, we definitely if it would have lasted longer, we definitely would have been the next wave to go absolutely would have. It just didn't last as long as you know, ally F and V f. But if it did, we definitely would have been the next ones to go. It was an eye opener. But again, it wasn't that we shied away or ran from it. It's just it was just an eye opener for young 18 year old that, yes, this is real. And it's not just for play plays, not Girl Scouts, a Boy Scout, this is a national service. So
Amanda Huffman08:37
yeah, that's an interesting start to your career. And just to see and hear the impact that adds, so you said that you did really well, and you were getting promoted. And were you enjoying your time in the Marines?
Robin Fortner08:50
Absolutely. I think that's important, right? Because everybody's journey is different when there's decisions that has to be made once your contract is up. And like I said, I think people to me make a difference. The leadership you have your first four years has a huge impact on how you stay in tumors all the time. I try not to leave the Marine Corps because of people you know, make sure it's something you want to do. But don't let people guide that I grew into that concept. My first four years, thankfully, I was blessed with good leadership. And no, everyday was not a rose garden. But I had a great cadre of NGOs who was able to take me under their wing. I'm blessed for that because I didn't join necessarily so polished I'm gonna be honest with you. I really wasn't as a city kid. It took me a minute to really understand military ways, right? It just it just took me a minute, but the leadership is what and not coddled, they demanded for me, but I was able to step up to that plate then they just kept demanding different ways of behavior that was expected of Marines and I was able to step up to that plate thankfully because it and there wasn't a about, you know, killing my career or writing me up or anything like that it was, it was leading and guiding, because at the end of the day, you're 1819 years old, right? So you have to mature into the actual job. And once I did that, it, it continued on because I always had the work ethic thing foundationally My mother always put a good work ethic in me. So that part wasn't the problem, it was just learning how the discipline of being in the actual military, so that was helpful, like I stated, I was able to get put up on myrtos balls, I worked my butt off to study for them and, and perform. And that was recognized. So I was able to fleet up a little bit faster than my peer group. At the same time. Some of the largest struggles my first year is that like many women, sometimes they get caught up, and I'm no different. You know, I managed to get to SAR major, but I was Lance Corporal at some point, and I became pregnant in my first enlistment, which can deter a lot of people. Back then this is 30 years ago, we were given a choice. So women have evolved in the military back then I was given a choice that I could have gotten out of the records simply because I was pregnant. And that was something I had to think about. And I did but I chose to stay in. I felt like watching some of the other lady Marines who had already done it I had in me, they were thriving, and being a marine and a mom having someone to see and to witness that helped my decision if I was surrounded by nothing, but men say I might have been swayed to get out because I might have felt like I couldn't do it. But I had an example of success, where they were striving and still being a mother to their kids. And also, I just had to stop and think, Okay, this is possible to do. And I watched my mother work hard and still raise kids. So that was not foreign to me, though. I continued on and I was like, No, I'm gonna stay in. And you know, I was warned, it's gonna be tough, and bla bla bla bla, but it was finding that Marine Corps family to continue and make that happen, and still serve well. I vowed to myself that that moment like around that topic, I vowed to myself, then that my child will never be a crutch for me. And it would never be an excuse. Because as I saw, that was important. I needed to make sure I balanced them
Amanda Huffman12:12
both interesting that you talked about, like the rule that you could get out. And it's almost like that rule was there to make you think that you needed to get out. But you were lucky. And you had examples of women who had done it, and were leading the way and had you not had those kind of would have been like, well, they're telling me that I can get out. So maybe I supposed to get out. So it's interesting how rules like that that was a rule when I was in in 2007. And it changed. I think it's only recently changed in the last few years. So it's crazy how much change has happened and how much the stigma around women getting pregnant changes when you remove that type of role.
Robin Fortner12:52
Absolutely. Right, it changed if the rule was removed, right? That Okay, this is something I signed up for this is my obligation, this is something I have to make happen is that I haven't an out per se, you know, the more we have evolved in the military, the more women that join, and our role, our roles within the military has changed dramatically, as you know, and that has put us on an equal playing field that yes, you can balance family and being in the military at the same time difficult, don't get me wrong and different, different challenges as we'll speak about, but it is doable. And it's a prominent thing to say you serve men and women and to do it underneath those stressful types of conditions and be successful on the back end. But the key part is, you know, is the representation you know, like I mean, even now I think females need just need to see that as possible, right to see what's in the realm of the possible so haven't and they were young unseals and that's what made it even more relevant to me, because they were closer to my age. And it wasn't far fetched. There was something there close and at every level, I think that's just important that we have those mentors. They don't have to be assigned and other be formal, but just leadership by example. I watched them without them even though I was watching them and I saw what I needed to do you know, and they thankfully behaved themselves in a model sense that I can emulate.
Amanda Huffman14:14
What was it like to go from being a young marine and then being a young Marine who was also a mom like how did you find the balance to keep going and like when it was time to re enlist to decide to stay in? Did you feel like you had to stay in because you needed to provide provide for your child or did you feel like no, this is the right thing to do. This is what I want to do
Robin Fortner14:36
Right on Amanda, great question. I think a little bit of both. I think definitely in my mindset was now there's an added human being, you know, who is dependent upon me and I definitely needed to provide right so I definitely knew that at the time. I didn't have many of the options right so going home, I thought was actually so go home and do what You know, I was starting all over where once again, when you saw families thriving in the military, or I can stay, provide certain benefits for my child for myself and get my family, if you will, at the time to a level that that we can actually operate on both sides on. So I think both of them cost my mind. You know, I'm trying to think back 26 years ago, but both of those thought process costs my mind at the end of the day, it was definitely family and core. I still loved what I was doing. When I was growing into that right i was i was going into my role, I was becoming an NCO and noncommissioned officers. So that was a big thing for new new recruits, if you will, a new Marines become an NCO right now is becoming an NCO. So on the professional side, I felt like I had a path to grow here in the Marine Corps. And I didn't want to let that go. But many women I think, suffer from mommy guilt, or even men from parent guilt. That was the balance of any job. If it is a high demanding job, how do you balance family, and that's not just the military that's in any job. And that's where the next enlistment if you will, and thereafter that's where it came from. It was no longer about whether or not I was going to stay it was how I stayed and how effectively I can balance the two because my work ethic and my family life are both important, right? And the more you pull on one side, the other suffers all these sacrifices something so how, how do I do that became my focus from the latter point on once I enlisted once, I don't know something in me, I knew at that point, I would at least retire I knew it. I said, I'm going to stay at that point, I just knew I was going to stay at least till 20. Because that's just the path that was our set that we are going to be a marine.
Amanda Huffman16:50
So you're talking about being in the Marine Corps in the early 90s. And I mean, there's not very many women in the Marine and even in thing that you wrote for me, you were the few of the few. So what was it like to be a woman in the Marine Corps in the 90s? And you're a single mom, right?
Robin Fortner17:07
No, I actually was married at this point. I was married to another marine back to your question about Yes, do military for one. But in the 90s when, when things were still, you know, the relationship of gender equality was still a hot topic. And it wasn't uncommon, just like many other people to be the only one I think our numbers for the Marine Corps is still the smallest of all services back then we were averaging around 7%. Now, in 30 years or so we've only increased till 9% working our way to 10. But this is why I said fee were the field because it we just don't, it's just not enough, if you will just not a lot of female Marines. So you always on guard have gender biases. And actually just from the beginning you you learn it, that you're going to face it, some people face it better than others, I was one that can somewhat take adversity or be able to work and navigate my way through adversity without it depleting me or draining me so much. But it doesn't mean that it wasn't work constantly against gender biases that you faced in the workspace outside the workspace and programs and policies and everything that was set for you, you know, you needed to work harder, you know, and I know I took that to heart and always made sure I worked hard to ensure that I was representing not just myself, but I knew no matter what I did, I was representing the masses, because that's just that's just how it was, even to the day I retire. And even now in retirement, that is always a constant welcome burden, though at the same time, but it's a constant for most females that they recognize that they have to go above and beyond at times to truly make the same impact as maybe an average male and then some just growing up in the Marine Corps in the 90s I think I saw and experienced a lot of changes by the time I got to a position to where I can influence I was able to influence a lot of changes. So the longer I stayed in, even after 20 years one of the reasons I stayed in the Marine Corps because I could have left out as well is I wanted to continue to serve because there wasn't that many at the level that I had achieved and I knew that if I love right now who would be at the table we just don't have it right i mean it's they just wasn't around so many people would have tried out whether their bodies or they wanted to raise families for many different reasons. And I knew that it was important for somebody to continue on and be at the tables and be able to speak our piece and be a voice for the voiceless you name and all those things that come with it. But I took on that burden early on just watching the gender biases around me even from the 90s there's so many different policies and you know so much fear amongst men to talk to women and we were just so ostracized not they were the you know, this the career killers All types of names and somebody has to endure, somebody has to endure. So I think my generation in the 90s, we endured for our time, but before us, there was so much more that they enjoy. And I felt like it was my responsibility to keep it on so that we can get to the level we are now still a lot of work to do. You continue to push the ball forward.
Amanda Huffman20:21
And did you feel any extra racism toward you as being a black female, because I'm sure you are a minority as a woman, but you were also a minority as a minority in the Marine Corps,
Robin Fortner20:33
I mean, absolutely a lot of systematic or hidden. So I know we can't see each other right now. But I stand six foot tall on a good day, right with boots on. So I have a posture that is overbearing, if you will, for a woman. So many times, I've learned that when I walk into a room is different from maybe a five foot two, you know, it's just a different posture. So men didn't always approach me personally in the same manner. But you get the hidden isms, gender ism, and racism, things like that. When you see different cliques and you know, over talking of a person, you know, what I'm saying the ostracism of so there's, there's a lot of that that still continued on, because you have to get used to being the only in the room, whether it is for me the only person of color, or as male or female, or the only female in the room, and how to I learned through thick skin, how to be heard, and how to add value. And I found that instead of, you know, complaining and being angry, and you know, just just given up, or those type of things that I wanted to probably do deep down inside, I felt that when I perform, I changed mindsets, basically call it like my chisel right and say if I can perform in my box, then I'm chiseling on a mindset without really being political about it or, or to a point where they're not receptive. And you can see the change, like I can recall starting a job at a session or whatever. And you can see the reception of me when I first get there. And then throughout the time, I'm chiseling mindsets, based on my performance, my knowledge, being proficient, stay on top of my game out doing them and a lot of different ways. And with that, you could tell on the back end, the chiseling of how they saw people of color and how they saw women. And many men throughout my career have actually told me that, you know, Robin, you know, when I first met you that, and as well as being a person, you know, from a city environment, so my tongue is not always curb, I can lash out as good as the next one. But I found that I would harness that and make it into a positive productive output, versus just channeling it. And it imploding. I made sure that I was able to perform that has helped my career is going into something I already know it in the back of my head, we kind of talked briefly before we started recording, just having a meeting today. I know before I got there, I'm going to be the only person of color. And I'm going to be the only female in the room. And what I say and how I say it affects everybody else who falls into those two categories, right? fair or unfair, is real. And it's reality to how we need to approach some of the circumstances today.
Amanda Huffman23:32
Yeah, last week, I did an interview for the VA born the battle podcast, and it was three male Marines and me and we're talking about Afghanistan. And before the interview, I felt so much pressure because I was going to be representing women because I knew I was the only woman being there and I was I don't feel qualified, I can understand that pressure. Like you have to think I'm a woman there were three other men there and me and I was like I was the one voice for women I had a lot of responsibility on like sharing my experience and my story and helping share that's like how women feel not all women. But you know, there is a lot of pressure I
Robin Fortner24:15
think we all bear it right in some manner. We all bear from the time we we start you know until the time I can't even say stop because like you and I after service in uniform, you are continuing to serve. But it's important that I think just in the evolution of any country or any initiative, if you will, if we want to see change, we have to be a part of the change, right and we have to emulate the change. That's what said I welcome the burden at the same time. You know, and I think leaning on each other and doing things like this and getting around on the females and just venting out or just talking and then you find out you're not an island by yourself, right? There's other people doing the same thing and that can be uplifting for you to go fight another day. But I think The way we fight is important how we heard, I've set back and I'm sure you have to set back and room sometimes sometimes it's good to just observe, right? And you can watch and you watch the reaction, say when another female may talk or you know, even another person of color or another from this, you name it right and just watch the reaction. So I've always wanted to watch the reaction, right? Because in my head, I always think I have to know the game to play the game. So if my strategic move is not moving mountains, I need to pivot and try it another way. Because the end result, my end goal is for them to be receptive, you put them whoever you want to put them to be, but you want the people to be receptive. So how are you getting to that end goal, I kind of take a step back sometime and make sure and reevaluate the how, just the what we have to do, but the how we go about doing it.
Amanda Huffman25:54
And that's really great advice. It's so fascinating to hear you talk about that. And just like you share your story. And it resonated with my story. And I didn't even realize like how much pressure I put on myself. But then I was like, Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about, and how we're not alone. Sometimes we feel alone, like you're the only one who feels that way. And then you have a conversation and you realize, no, you're not alone, just like everybody else. Let's get a little bit closer back to your career and go through some of the highlights of different things that you want to touch on. I'm not sure I mean, you served during September 11. So I don't know if you want to talk about that. Or if there's another thing that sometimes there's hidden history in the 90s that people don't know about
Robin Fortner26:37
lots has happened, I guess in 30 years, right. You know, especially in the Marine Corps, I think we were talking about how we joined and what was expected of women then and what's expected now and I think everybody during that timeframe can see their own change. So much much has happened, we could be on a whole nother podcast. But a couple of things to highlight not just from the 90s, you kind of brought up September 11. That's the key for all the services. I think that was a good turning point for all right, it was it was different from Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and the way we got into a lie F and an oaf and it's a shift for the whole country. So September 11. Again, for me being a New Yorker, you know, was was definitely a real pivotal point in my career, it didn't really stop me from wanting to serve or thought I would serve more because I was already on that glide path to serving, but I serve differently. You can be trained to be a warrior, and it's different when you got to really put it into action. Right? So that's what September 11. To me did. It made everyone true warriors to me, not just in concept. And not just because we was in garrison for so long. It really brought into putting into execution phase for a long time is guys, you know, but at the time was September 11 2001. I was serving on the drillfield at the time. And for the Marine Corps, if you don't know we had Abby's word head because it's past tense now had the only segregated boot camp at the time down at Parris Island. So I was a Jewish doctor and an all female battalion. And we train all female recruits. And I just remember we was just beginning a cycle when September 11 hit, but the jewelry shop that I was prior to that, and a jewelry shop that I became. That's what I mean by training the next generation of warriors. It went from, you know, conceptual based tactics, to really executing and getting into the mindset, not just from the concept, but in the heart and the culture of the recruits. Because we knew that when we graduate them, they were off, they were going just like the guy told me years ago, you're next it was that kind of mentality shift I wanted to put into the recruits from day one that this is not a game, I need you to take everything seriously. And we poured that into them. And even after that, you can see the difference in the way we train recruits. It was reality was reality checks. And that started the mindset from the very, very, very beginning. I don't think we knew I could talk for myself if he was in an environment. That wasn't the point at that very exact time. Everybody was itching to get to, to the fight. Everybody was itching to get to the fight. And I remember there was a topfield that came across and it came across about this task force team to center up gana Stan to train the Afghans and I put my name and a hat and I put my name in and I was like yes send me send me send me and then it came back out everyone whose name was in the head. I was the only one who got denied. But the reason I got denied was because I was a female only reason I got denied and where they will go in for this particular mission. Just Just the culture in Afghanistan. We never had allow for female to come in at the time. You know, again, bumping up against obstacles because of your gender. You know, and I personally learned not to take 100 offense I was like You got to be kidding me. But when you get educated and learn the culture of the app again, then you realize how that would not have played at the time. So it took me a minute to get into the fight after the job, Phil, but I had to learn this is my role right now. So the rolling back, I need to train the recruits to get to the fight until I'm done with this duty. And then I too, can get to the fight. But you know, that just goes to show you that gender biases, or just cultural things is not just specific or unique to us. It's something that that we have run across the throughout this entire planet, if you will, right. And many, many, many other countries. During my career, I love being on a Joe Phil, actually, I went back twice. But aside from the deployments, we've we also can talk about some of the pivotal historical things that I was a part of one that I'm proud of is what we call the ground combat element, integrated Task Force long name. But in short, it was nothing more than the initial push for testing females and combat roles. So you remember, before the exclusion law was lifted, the Marine Corps was the only service who put together a task force unit where we tested that theory to the Corps, and I got chosen to be the senior enlisted for that Battalion, if you will, right, again, completely out of the norm for most people, because we had never done it before. We've never put a female SAR major in charge of combat mlss This is the first time we're doing it from the operational start side, but also from the humanistic side. How do we integrate men and women, you know, it just had never been done in execution to that level, there's small pockets, but not to that level. So very proud of that. And what that has led to, aside from the politics, what we learned, inhibited lead to the unit itself, and how to build that strong unity of both male and female through many challenges. But the end result, once again, as I talked about that chisel effect, from where we started, the challenges we went through chisel and chisel and all the way to we ended and the attitudes of our males on the end, for me with success, what's in the realm of the possible, aside from being held to political strength, what's in a realm of possible for many women to serve together and respect each other to that capacity. It was a huge shift in culture, huge on a small level, but very proud of that, at the same time, reaching the rank of sergeant major was another
Amanda Huffman32:32
Let's stop and talk about what that experience was like. And was that part of like, how bootcamp went from being segregated and to being desegregated? where men and women are in the same training? Or what are some of the other things that you can see that the work that you guys impacted in the future of the court?
Robin Fortner32:52
Great question. Because out of that unit, you know, again, so much cake so much came out of it, we learned a lot about ourselves, we learned a lot about our warfighting capability, we learned a lot about our slps our standards, we learned so much that we had to kind of reevaluate one thing we talked about was that you can see now is definitely a lot of effort has been put into the equipment that we were right and the amount of weight that's put into the military, not even just the Marine Corps, but army as well, what an infantryman is required to carry, you know, so we're asking them to carry X amount of weight, and it is like three, four fifths of a typical average woman, wait, I don't care who you are, you can't do it effectively, for a long period of time, if a male is forced to carry three quarters of his weight the entire time, there will be significant medical implications and is no different, right? So we, what came out of that that I even saw is the lighting of the law, right? So finding materials that serve the same purpose give the same protection, but don't have the heavy weight that we were accustomed to bearing right. So much has changed on them. The Marine Corps has changed their sizing metrics, if you will, when we were in the actual unit itself, you would watch female Marines and without complaint packs on it back that it just physically it wasn't correct, right? It just it just didn't physically fit them in a manner to where they could be effective and carrying it across. Because it wasn't made for them. I mean, it just it just wasn't it was made for an average man. It wasn't made for average person. So we had the gender neutralize the way we went about sizing at the same time. So those are just a few. And then from the culture standpoint, we also looked at I say we as a Marine Corps, right different task force would actually come in and do different things. But we as a recall, looked at where does this start, and that's where the bootcamp came along. That actually has been a conversation for you. Even before that, do we desegregate? Why don't we use things like that? But where does it start? And starting at that initial level can never go wrong, right? If we're going to talk about putting you together from an energy standpoint, you got to be put together from a bootcamp standpoint as well. Right and train and learn how to train together and gain that respect. I go back to the cultural piece putting that Chisholm right your performance and everything, no matter how much awareness and things you want to push down people's throat, it means something different when they can feel it, you know, when when they can go through and see it and feel it. So starting from the beginning, is something that that was looked at to help in the progress. Many people say isn't that it's not the end all be all, it just is not. But it's, it's a, it's an avenue to, to really look at an approach. And that's where the Marine Corps went with that not to speak on behalf of all specifics of the leadership. But that's kind of looking at things like the GCC ITF is a good example of where the culture can can actually go with success.
Amanda Huffman36:02
I learned about the Marine Corps being segregated and an interview on someone's like, also like to be with men and women and your basic and I was like, normal. That's just I thought everybody did it. And so it was kind of shocking to hear that. And he was he was a Marine, and he was like, I just don't understand. And then when he talked to me and heard my experiences, maybe the Marine Corps knows what they're doing.
Robin Fortner36:27
Yeah, I mean, I remember being in the jewelry shop the down there, actually, I was the Sergeant Major of the actual whole battalion who train all females back then. And we would get visited by other services to see how we did it. They were more interested in us back then, and how we did it, because it will come with pros and cons. You know, it goes back to my original thought process of it's not about what you do, it's how you do it, right. So even if we integrate how we integrate is still very important, right? You can always make it worse, right? You can almost make it worse, if you don't have the right mentality and the right culture in place. leaders have to be careful even now going forward. How do we do that? Because many of the other services, although it's integrated, they face different challenges, still, and we too are going to be noted there's going to be challenges. So to get ahead of those things, and you know, treat people like adults, but it's not impossible to do I am advocate that it's not, it's not impossible, not impossible to do so.
Amanda Huffman37:27
So the last thing you were going to talk about was making the brain Sergeant Major.
Robin Fortner37:32
I mean, I just wanted to close out with that, cuz that's the last rank, I held the highest rank and you know, it would be cool equivalent to any of the servers, Massachusetts and things like that. It's a once again, the few of the few, right so it really is, it's a small percentage that make it to this rank as it is and then is even smaller percentage that I wanted. But it's also been a highlight of a lot of my career because you're in an influential position, right. And so it really was the timeframe for me to say, now it's the giveback timeframe to work hard at being at the table or the work hard to be in her to work hard to give the two candid opinions, you know, and not to throttle back, it's taken everything that that we worked hard for making sure it has footing and a sense of, it's not going to die when I leave out, right. So there's enough footing there. Like even now I look back and I see strategic people, I don't want to say like that. But you know, folks who will carry on the message at the same time, because I have a mantra of each one teach one. And it wasn't about getting here for myself, it was about can someone be at the table, right? So and to continue that out and teach the next one and develop the next one. So that we can continue that push of someone being at the table, and we will try it out. It's tough to stay 30 years for men or women, this tough to stay 30 years. And I recognize that very tough. Because I was able to do it, I wanted to make sure that it continues on and there's so many people so many great Marines behind me who is doing just that, like I see them mindset is already I'm going to stay you know, like they know they're going to stay and that's something really positive to see and hear because there are my timeframe and then always have much of an anomaly for those who stated 30 that was more of the you know, definitely the small of isn't all the percentages and now I hear so many more ready to stay for 30 so if I can influence anything, I'm I'm constantly putting it out there 30 years, 30 years because I want them to see the possible and then that it is possible to stay and it's it's rewarding. At the same time, you know, you can get a lot a lot out of it. But you can influence a lot of things. And I think that's just what we need. The diversity of thought is just needed at all levels. So once you get to that higher rank when you can sit in a room with the Commandant of the Marine Corps, or you sit in a room with generals and some major of the Marine Corps and you have proven yourself credible where they value your opinion And that says a lot. As I retired out and and transition last year, you know, many people ask me, do you miss it? Do you miss it, and of course you miss a lot about it. But I can honestly say, I don't feel a void. I feel like I've done what I've been put on this earth to do, I have fulfilled my calling, if you will, in uniform by just don't fill a void. And I just never have. And I think I think that's because I was able to stay. But also it's not the years you've stayed but the difference you've made, you know, this several different initiative that I've been blessed to be called upon for my candid advice. And it's never been just what Robin felt, I would reach out and how will we feel? And what are we thinking so that I can articulate those thoughts through me, or whoever's at the table, but you know, something that would benefit the masses, and not just specifically for me, but it's been rewarding, and I wouldn't change much, I'm gonna be honest, I just wouldn't change much. So of course, there's always things you could tweak, right? There's always things you can fake, but I just wouldn't change much. I like for the time that I was in challenges, we have been able to be a part of that. And now it's exciting, sitting back watching it continue on, I mean, look with it going. I don't recall her name, I want to say it was on LinkedIn. And she young PFC, young, young rain, and she talked about the best decision she made was becoming an infantryman, I got a young female saying the best decision she made was infantry, what we read and hear about that, that was just unheard of during my timeframe. So look at the evolution of mindset that we're going, you know, we could talk for days, stories of night came in what I was taught at boot camp, and it was nothing about combat, right, it was nothing about very little, it was about being a female in uniform, and acting according to that, you know, but here we are training warriors, male or female. And there's a lot to be said about that. I still think the ball can be pushed further and faster. But I don't wanna lose sight of the small and the small and the large hurdles that have already been made. And there's a lot that we can celebrate at the same time.
Amanda Huffman42:09
Yeah, and right before we started talking, you said there was a lot to do in the military. And now you're a veteran. And you see there's a lot to do for veteran So does that excite you as you have like your second career? And what do you see happening with the work that you're doing now?
Robin Fortner42:27
Exactly, you know, it's like, continue to serve, I think, just just that feeling in me cannot just be like a light switch and turn it off. Right? So when I retire, I didn't just turn it off. I think there's gonna always be a graduate it's gonna be always be a light in me. And any opportunity that I can. I'm jumping on it. As I retired, the first thing that that excited me was being able to be on advisory boards and governance boards for Marine Corps Association, Foundation, and different organizations where I can be that voice still, right. And I can also support the active duty at at the same time, and the more I continue to do that, whether it's it's on the female side, or the Ricoh, in totality, that resonates with me, and it still is still keeps me going, it very much excites me, right that I can still serve. And then now from the veteran, I learned more and more about the gap between active duty and veteran service, right? Meaning when you finally in your service, whether that's retiring or you get out or medically retired, whatever the case may be, and then you transition to being a veteran. To me, there's this somewhat of a gap in there of handoff, right. And I think I would love to work more in that gap, if that makes sense. Whether it's mentoring, educating on my own personal experience, or opening the doors of things, because it's so overwhelming of what to do next. For those who serve a long time. It's just you've been doing this your entire adult life, and now decided to make that shift. Some people do better than others. But there's just that gap. And then we're just so used to that camaraderie. And you don't want to take your hand off of that in totality. And I think that will be helpful for many veterans going forward, along with what resources are out there, what benefits are out there, helping to tweak those benefits and services. That can be more modernize, if you will, for the veterans of today. So I think there's just so much, so much work to be done that hasn't even been touched yet. Especially since we, for me, I'm coming out during a pandemic so there's still more that's revealing itself that I can do or opportunities I can step in. So I'm excited for the future. I'm excited to be more involved. I've been doing my own research for what what a women's services out there. And I'm even talking to some of my peer groups who have since retired Same as me recently. And that's why I said I know there's a gap there right? So I'm always looking, how can I be in that gap? How Can I feel some of that, and I do my own things on on the side at times, whether it's getting a small cadre together being a part of a small group that just meets weekly, we just talk things like that is helpful. And I found it's mentally helpful. And it can help the transition from being in a military, having this military family. And then what comes next when you take that off, and not losing yourself, you identity and your work at the same time, because there's so much value in that veterans, it just needs to be brought out more and more.
Amanda Huffman45:33
Yeah, I was talking to someone I was like, well, there's like people who are transitioning out of the military. And then there's like, when you're transitioning, and then you're a veteran. I know they're technically veterans when they get out, but they're not really veterans, it usually takes one to five years, depending on like, what your life situation is before you're like a veteran.
Robin Fortner45:52
Yes, exactly. Because I'm, I'm still in that transition, right? I feel like it's just been a year, right? So I'm still to me, I'm still in Asia, I still learn from different sources and LinkedIn, and I am still learning and there's so much that you got to figure out well, what do I really want to do, because I can do it. All right, so reinventing yourself or just reflecting on what it is that you really want to do. And I think it's important for people to take that time, no matter what service no matter how long you served, it's important to really know which direction you want to go in. For those of us who retire, especially for 20 or more, I think that's really important. Even more so because you've been doing this for so long, there's a level of that that has defined you to the point of this is what I'm used to doing. But taking the uniform off doesn't lessen my value. You know, it just it changes my path. And that's really all I want that to do what is best, that's what I've tried to emulate in my own self is taken that off, it's just moved my path button poor Robin is has not changed. And I will continue on to press forward to serve case veterans always hold dear to my heart now Well, I could do this well, I am very much in tune to how we support the active duty, you know, whether it's equipping services, just being supportive as a country, in this next fight, wherever that may go. Right. So I think that's important, just as citizens to continue that support.
Amanda Huffman47:22
Yeah, this has been a great interview, and I really love getting to talk to you. And I always like to end my interview with one last question, which is, what advice would you give to young women who are considering military service?
Robin Fortner47:34
Yes, great, great question. As always, young women who will considering going into military service, I think the biggest advice I would give to them is to be ready to be mentally and physically ready to be willing to step up and outside of their box for the greater good, but at the same time, the reward will be so great. And the confidence that will be instilled will be enormous. And unmatchable, I believe in most cases. So if you're considering joining, I would ask that you always not be afraid to ask the hard questions. You only know what you know, find someone to talk to find a mentor actually recruited that link you up with somebody make sure you get the right information before you go in, the better prepared you are, the better that that transition from civilian to military will be and then you look at it from a positive aspect.
Amanda Huffman48:29
That's such great advice. Thank you so much for being on the show and for giving your wisdom and sharing about your experience. Thank you.
Robin Fortner48:37
Thank you Amanda, for having me on.
Amanda Huffman48:44
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